My wife and I have to move out of our home. We are one of the many families in the Central Valley of California who can't afford their mortgages, and must move out. While many judge us for being greedy and buying homes that were more than we could afford, it is seldom that simple. How did we get into this mess?Comments
Anonymous
August 28, 2008 12:36 pm
You made a lot of bad decisions, by your own admission. My feeling is if you want to call yourself a Christian, you should conduct yourself as such. I'm not you did that here. On the other hands, I think banks are handling these situations in an incredibly cruel manner. I imagine you have learned a lot about how cruel people can be, even people who call themselves Christians. I imagine some of your bank people are Christians and believe me, they don't care.
Anonymous
August 28, 2008 3:40 pm
You don't need anyone to slap you around because you've already got plenty of bruises. Instead, let me offer my own story, without judgement, for you to compare and contrast.
19 years ago, shortly after marrying, we bought a house in the Midwest. Mortgage rates were 11%. We found an 1150 sq ft house we could afford, in a location that was adaquate. My wife uses the bus for commuting, thus meaning we needed only one car. My longer commute to the next town needed a car. Our one car was paid off, used, and homely, but it ran. Two years later we refinanced to a 15-year fixed at 8.5%. We had to replace a roof (cash) and get a modest new car (on a 3-year note). Paid off the house in 13 years, and it's value is holding steady. Currently: debt free with over half a mil in the bank, lots of charitable donations, on combined income of under $80k. Oh, and I'm Pagan. (Matthew 19:24)
Anonymous
August 28, 2008 3:43 pm
So what is the 'Christian' thing to do if you have a comittment to a $4000 a month mortgage and can't pay it?
1. Get a second and third job, let your kids grow up at day care while you burn out and lose your relationships.
2. Declare bankruptcy, liquidate your assets, have all your debts forgiven (credit cards too), and start over
3. Go into foreclosure, lose your home but keep your assets (and your credit card debts, which you intend to pay), and start over
I chose #3. What do you recommend?
daniel sinclair
August 28, 2008 3:48 pm
Mr. Midwest,
That sounds very wise. The only difference is, an 1100 sq. foot home in bus distance to any job here is $300,000. Second, my wife is home raising the kids instead of letting day care do it. Third, you live in the midwest ;)
But your point is well made.
Anonymous
August 28, 2008 4:14 pm
Mr. Midwest here. My oversimplified response (1000 char max) attempted to make this point: At every step, we chose to be frugal and conservative [but vote liberal! ;) ]. Cheap car, location that supported our means (and desired end), resisted the impulse to "upgrade". When your so-called friend moved in, did you *need* the bigger house, or *want* a bigger house? Could you, at the start, have lived closer, rented cheap, saved a substantial downpayment (mac and cheese, PB&J) and bought with a lower mortgage? What other >>lifestyle choices<< could have led to a different outcome?
You got caught in a bubble of bad timing and overreach. None of the bank issues are the banks fault - you seem like a smart guy. Gimmicky loans cater to greed. Your choice AFTER the foreclosure is ok, but what about all the choices that led TO it? Were they Christ-like?
Anonymous
August 28, 2008 5:28 pm
>Could you, at the start, have lived closer, rented cheap, saved a substantial downpayment (mac and cheese, PB&J) and bought with a lower mortgage? What other >>lifestyle choices<< could have led to a different outcome?
Perhaps, but actually, rent was really high compared to a mortgage, so rent would have been 'throwing away' money - besides, at the time the homes were still going UP in value - our house went to $150K MORE than what we paid for it in 2 years, after which it plummeted to $250K LESS than what we paid.
Regarding downpayments, no one could have saved quicker than the prices were going up, which was $5-20K per month for years. It made more sense to get in with whatever you had before you were priced out of the distant market you were already in - we were already priced out of every market within 30 miles of work.
Anonymous
August 28, 2008 5:28 pm
We could have bought a smaller home, could have never ate out, and cut back more than we had - but we drove old, paid for cars, got used or free clothes for the kids, so we did *some* of that. But even the *smaller* homes were $300K at the time, so we probably would have had the same problem unless we moved into a slum.
Anonymous
August 28, 2008 5:28 pm
> You got caught in a bubble of bad timing and overreach. None of the bank issues are the banks fault
Some of them are. They loaned to people beyond what their incomes should have allowed. They were unwilling to extend low loan rates beyond the ARM window. They would rather foreclose and evict owners, then resell the property than do a short sale or short refinance, even though that costs them MORE money in the long run.
Anonymous
August 28, 2008 5:28 pm
> you seem like a smart guy. Gimmicky loans cater to greed. Your choice AFTER the foreclosure is ok, but what about all the choices that led TO it? Were they Christlike?
Um, the better question is 'were they biblical' - many of these issues are addressed more specifically in scripture than merely in the Gospels. But we did make some unwise decisions.
Anonymous
August 28, 2008 5:28 pm
Sorry for the many comments, but the 1000 character limit is awful.
Anonymous
August 28, 2008 8:04 pm
>the better question is 'were they biblical'
The Bible is a really poor ethical guide, with the exception of the words of Christ. For every good reference in the Bible, there is one that teaches the opposite lesson. Turn the other cheek? 2Kings 2:23-34. Husbands love your wives? Deuteronomy 24:1-2 Love your neighbor? Leviticus 25:44-46
I could go on all night.
I guess my curiosity in replying to this post had much to do with the idea that you were a "Christian in foreclosure". Really, what does that have to do with anything that unfolded? Does your faith abrogate responsibility, or make your suffering special? Are you Daniel in the lion's den? Job? Was this the wisdom of Solomon?
I sort of understand your woes. Here in the Flyover Zone, most of the bank shenanigans were pretty tame, and houses didn't balloon like they did where you are. Sounds like you've had a rough time. Best of luck to you. May Christ guide you, and not necessarily contemporary Christianity
Anonymous
August 29, 2008 9:13 am
It's Christlike to help a friend, but it's not Christlike to put your own family at risk doing so. Helping them pay the mortgage was good; relying on someone proven to be unreliable was less so.
And being from Indiana, a lot about California living mystifies me. I live in a nice 3500-square-foot home we purchased for $170K. And I'm a tech worker, so Silly Valley makes sense for me to work in, too--apart from the ridiculous cost of living.
Anonymous
August 29, 2008 12:16 pm
> Does your faith abrogate responsibility, or make your suffering special?
Absolutely not.
> May Christ guide you, and not necessarily contemporary Christianity
I guess it depends on which part of 'contemporary' Christianity you follow ;) Thanks for the well wishing. We've learned some hard lessons.
daniel sinclair
August 29, 2008 12:18 pm
> And being from Indiana, a lot about California living mystifies me.
One thing - it's the sunshine. You know those beautiful sunny days when it just feels great to be alive? I grew up in NJ where those happen a few times a year. Here, they happen half of the year, at least. It makes a big difference not to suffer long winters.
Anonymous
August 29, 2008 12:58 pm
Mr. Midwest here.
>>I guess it depends on which part of 'contemporary' Christianity you follow ;)
Well, I don't, Pagan, remember?. So I only reply in general. I refer to the mass of contemporary Christianity that is not at all Christ-like. Judgemental, money-grubbing, sanctimoneous, telling all and sundry about how Christian they are or blindly following charismatic charlatans. To them, I say, don't tell me...show me. Pass on the Lexus and buy that homeless guy a meal, shave, haircut, shower, and change of clothes. Then see if there's a job in your company for him. Make do with the stuff you have and make a donation to the local Boys and Girls club. Skip a golf game now and again and work a few hours in a shelter. Read about Francis of Assisi and less about Tiger Woods. Jesus is the New Covenant, so quit quoting the Old Testament to rail against something you don't like. To the Catholics I ask, Where is your outrage? To the Baptists, get out of politics. 1000 chars
Anonymous
August 29, 2008 1:25 pm
Even though your column title wasn't fully explained in your article I think I can understand what you were trying to convey. We are raised to pay our debts, be wise with our investments and to live modestly. By moving out of your home you did something that went against everything you were raised to believe. However, Christian or not, you are not the only one going through it. We are in the middle of a short sale (due to our renters moving out in the middle of the night because they could no longer afford rent). Our real estate agents told us to stop paying the mortgage because the banks wouldn't accept any offer that might come in if we were current on our payments. I think instead of the comments above the questions here should be... Does this go against Christ's teachings? Are we "bad" Christians because will be lapse in our payments? Or does any of it even matter in the long run?
daniel sinclair
August 29, 2008 1:56 pm
>To them, I say, don't tell me...show me. Pass on the Lexus and buy that homeless guy a meal, shave, haircut, shower, and change of clothes.
I agree. However, those Christians that do live that kind of lifestyle don't get much press. I mean, the thousands of Christians who work in organizations like Feed the Children, World Vision, and local churches around the globe get a lot less press.
This is all off topic, of course, but don't forget Katrina. While the government had it's head in it's butt, it was mostly Christian church volunteers who were ready and present to help (though many non-Christian citizens helped too).
daniel sinclair
August 29, 2008 1:58 pm
> Our real estate agents told us to stop paying the mortgage because the banks wouldn't accept any offer that might come in if we were current on our payments. I think instead of the comments above the questions here should be... Does this go against Christ's teachings? Are we "bad" Christians because will be lapse in our payments? Or does any of it even matter in the long run?
All good questions. We really wrestled morally, ethically, and personally about not paying our mortgage, but there was no other option. We continued to pay off our credit cards (which had gone up because we lived for months with a monthly $2K deficit while we attempted to pay our mortgage) instead of declaring bankruptcy, which was our best ethical move.
Richard Ramirez
August 30, 2008 9:07 am
In the end, "how Christian am I" is a matter between you and Jesus. Are all who are not missionaries in destitute Africa, less Christian? That is more about your assessment of how you have and will live your life and how you will make the case before the Lord, who will certainly not use our contemporary barometers.
Take care of your family, meet this challenge in the best and most Christ like manner you can, recover and continue to honor Him .... you will be fine at the pearly gates!
Anonymous
August 30, 2008 1:35 pm
You have my sympathies, Daniel. We have gone through a very similar situation during the past 18 months. Ours was the result of a job relocation in a different state. We were unable to sell our home in Arizona.
We tried everything we could think of to remedy the situation in a responsible manner. We tried to work with the bank, but like you, our experience with them was been unbelievable. They'd rather lose the house than compromise with us. In the end, we ended up foreclosing on the house. My husband and I discussed the topic of "being right with God" many times. We wanted to make sure we weren't being negligent in our responsibilities and that we were honest in our dealings with other people. I just had to come to a peace that I'd done all I could do, and sometimes life just doesn't work out how we plan. I believe that God is understanding, and knows that we did everything we could.
Troy Hinrichs
August 30, 2008 9:38 pm
Daniel... I wouldn't say your mortal soul is at stake. Did you make a foolish decision or two? Welcome to humanity. God can and will help you through this. I find Psalms 37 especially comforting in hard times.
Hang in there brother. If you can't solve the crisis take care of what you can and especially take of your family -- that's your priority.
Anonymous
August 30, 2008 11:04 pm
I wouldn't pile a lot of guilt on your situation by wondering if you are "getting what you deserve". Keep asking the questions and continue to explore how your decisions square with your faith.
I remember my first promise keepers convention over 10 years ago where the question was asked how many people struggled with debt and the number of raised hands in the audience was easily over 50%, if not 75%. Being christian doesn't automatically insulate us from the problems. How we deal with them is a better marker of who we are.
Anonymous
September 1, 2008 2:02 pm
I gotta be honest, when i first read your title i got a annoyed.....as a Christian woman myself. As i read your article i felt a little disconnection from reality. I feel kind of silly saying this but the economy is shot right now and your christianity does not make you exempt. Your present crisis is a result of the season that our economy is in and the decisions you made as an individual.
Your friend left in the middle of the night leaving you in 40k debt? I'm sorry but i question your judgement. Did you also think that becoming a surety was the Christian thing to do?
You know we all make foolish decisions. Sometimes we get miracles sometimes not. Don't be afraid to start over though, God is the redeemer of time and in the end it it's worth the cost.
Cara Ellison
September 1, 2008 5:19 pm
I'm curious why you think the "greedy" builders might be to blame?
Anonymous
September 1, 2008 8:15 pm
God will provide for you and your family- his faithfulness never fails.
Anonymous
September 1, 2008 8:26 pm
I have friends who are committed Christians who really believe and try to live as if all they owned belonged first to God. The wife was involved in real estate investments which went bad this year because of the market. Then one of her business partners ran off with funds that her investment group was going to use to start a special school for children with autism, among other projects. Now my friends are days away from bankruptcy and foreclosure unless something were to turn around for them.
There are as many stories of things going south financially as there are Christians to tell them. It's hard to take this and make it your own sometimes-- but there is scriptural evidence and more stories than I could possibly count to testify that the Lord walks with us through difficult circumstances and gives us wisdom when we ask Him. Things may not be at all what you imagined your circumstances would be but keep walking and someday the scenery will change.
Anonymous
September 2, 2008 12:20 am
Well, sorry to hear of your troubles. Free markets will fix everything though-isn't that a biblical principal or something? Ask Tony Perkins, he'll tell you....
Anonymous
September 2, 2008 2:18 am
> I'm curious why you think the "greedy" builders might be to blame?
Because over the two or three year period when housing prices were going up, they raised the prices c. $10K per month, and there is no way that their expenses were going up that quickly. They were responding to the demand, but maximizing their profits. So they willingly overinflated the prices to cash in, but in doing so, created a bubble of value. The current value of the homes is the real value, and would have still profited them if they had sold them for a lesser margin in the first place. Which is why I don't feel sorry for them. And my wife was a sales agent for one (though she didn't make lots of money because she was junior, and got out when the market was failing).
Anonymous
September 2, 2008 7:47 pm
"The current value of the homes is the real value,"
How can the value of a thing be anything other than what someone is willing to pay for it? There is no such thing as the "real" value of an asset.
For that matter, if you purchased a home on the assumption that it would rise in value, then why are you not just as "greedy" as you accuse the home builders of being? They at least went through the effort of building the thing. What do you propose you were doing to earn that increased valuation?
In fact, if I follow your story correctly, you took out a $500k mortgage on a home you'd only paid $440k to purchase. You made a profit right there without lifting a finger. And yet you reserve your criticism for builders who sold homes for more than it cost to build them? Of *course* they did. If they weren't able to do that, who would ever build homes?
Anonymous
September 2, 2008 7:50 pm
By the way, it should be added -- the act of building homes increases the supply. That is a DOWNWARD pressure on market prices. Builders didn't create the bubble -- buyers with easy credit did. Builders, if anything, POPPED the bubble!
Search Diaries
Related Articles
Related Diaries
