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The Beginning of the End
C11 editors discuss the vice presidential debate.
By Conor Friedersdorf, Peter Suderman, and James Poulos., October 3, 2008
Peter Suderman
"So. That happened." -- Alec Baldwin, State and Main
Indeed, that happened... but what, exactly, was it that really occurred? On a superficial level, Palin survived, even thrived on occasion. This whole time we thought she was the wolf, about to get gunned down from helicopter above. Turns out she's piloting the dern thing! What a marvelously executed reverse bait-and-switch: You think you're getting a broken down lemon -- turns out you're getting a used subcompact. Even if you believe -- as now seems clear -- that the rumors of her disastrous performances at mock debates were McCain campaign expectation games, it was hard not to breath a sigh of something-like-relief at the end of this match-up.
That's true even for those of us who aren't wild Palin supporters; it puts me at ease to know that America is not yet so weird, so frighteningly bizarre and inexplicable, so blazingly psychotic and maniacally self-destructive that it can allow one of its major political parties to nominate someone for vice president who cannot navigate the relatively calm and shallow waters of a tame debate. Sure, Palin's a dud in too many ways to count, but at least she can wade her way through a hand-held Q&A with Gwen Ifill.
Yes, yes, the whole thing is graded on a quasi-mystical curve determined by Washington's secret societies: political wizards and campaign gurus and people who read The Hotline. Expectations are to politics as spice was to the planets of Dune: He who controls them wins. And on that front, this was a coup for the McCain camp, which managed to convince everyone that Palin would drive her can't-answer-questions truck right over the cliff into a spectacular crash in the Valley of Oooooooohhhh...Noooooo. But, just like in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, it's a trick. You think she's trapped in the smoldering wreckage below; then the camera pans around to reveal that she rolled out at the last minute. In the movie, you feel sad, then elated. Indy could've died! But he didn't! Same story here. Expectations were so dismal that most of us hardened election junkies were borderline unshockable. Palin could've mumbled misremembered lines from the Muppet show all night, and there would've been no shortage of commentater just shrugging their shoulders and saying, "Yeah, figures." Instead, the camera whipped around, and there she was, safe and sound. She could've died! But she didn't!
Conor Friedersdorf
This debate had an arc to it — Governor Palin came out far stronger than I suspected she would, seeming sharp and well-spoken. On style she destroyed Joe Biden as things began, giving crisp answers while he got bogged down defending himself by spewing out numbers. After 10 or 15 minutes, I thought that Governor Palin would emerge as the clear winner of the evening.
But when the debate turned to foreign policy her style suffered, and more important, the substance of her remarks signified no real knowledge of any of the topics being discussed. Joe Biden, on the other hand, seemed to have a depth of knowledge on every foreign policy topic, and I say that as someone who often disagrees with Senator Biden — even when he’s wrong he knows what he’s talking about.
My guess is that Sarah Palin did good enough to reassure voters who were beginning to doubt her competency, but that she didn’t win anyone over to the Republican side. This is because the topics on which Biden won — the economy, Iraq, and understanding what regular people are going through — are the most important to voters, whereas energy (drill baby drill!) is mere fodder for the base, though I too think we ought to drill. Likewise the most memorable moment, when Biden got choked up about his deceased family members in a way that clearly wasn’t affected, goes to the Democratic candidate.
Stepping back a moment, America has just witnessed a style of debate different than anything we’ve ever seen before. Governor Palin used cuteness as a weapon, actually winking at the camera on several occasions. Is this a portent of things to come? I can’t imagine that it is, and so I think that this was a singular political moment, and that it probably had Hillary Clinton, and maybe even Laura Bush, vomiting on the floor. For me, this cuteness sometimes made her seem likable. Other times I found it distressing, and found myself thinking, "Weird, this is a vice-presidential debate, but I feel like I’m watching a Fox News morning show anchor." That isn’t a statement about substance at all — just style.
There are limits to the utility of these instant impressions, and I look forward to digging into the transcript over the next day or two, and may well determine that some of this is wrong. But my guess is that Governor Palin’s answers will be worse for closer analysis, because she used buzz words with relish — maverick, straight talk, etc. Also, Governor Palin expressed a desire to talk more to voters without the filter of the mainstream media. The test of whether this is a mere talking point — it is — or whether she is being earnest, is whether she seeks out unscripted forums with voters over the next several weeks.
Finally, what about my call for Governor Palin to be kicked off the ticket? One criticism of my article was that the base would never accept it, and Governor Palin performed well enough tonight for that to be definitively true. But I don’t think she performed nearly well enough to allow John McCain to win the election, and neither did she convince me that she would be capable of becoming President on day 2.
To put a finer point on this, I ask the following of everyone who watched tonight’s debate — were John McCain assassinated at his inauguration by terrorists, even as two American cities saw buildings partially blown up by truck bombs, and Vladimir Putin used the opportunity to move troops into a former Soviet Repulic, would you trust that Governor Palin would have the knowledge, credibility, bearing and calming influence on the country to handle the situation? Or would having her in the Oval Office freak you out in a deep way? I’d be frightened, and I expect a lot of people now supporting Governor Palin would think, "Oh God, what have I done." I was hoping I’d change my mind about that tonight, for I really am all about not wanting worse case scenarios to happen, but alas I still worry about it.
"So. That happened." -- Alec Baldwin, State and Main
Indeed, that happened... but what, exactly, was it that really occurred? On a superficial level, Palin survived, even thrived on occasion. This whole time we thought she was the wolf, about to get gunned down from helicopter above. Turns out she's piloting the dern thing! What a marvelously executed reverse bait-and-switch: You think you're getting a broken down lemon -- turns out you're getting a used subcompact. Even if you believe -- as now seems clear -- that the rumors of her disastrous performances at mock debates were McCain campaign expectation games, it was hard not to breath a sigh of something-like-relief at the end of this match-up.
That's true even for those of us who aren't wild Palin supporters; it puts me at ease to know that America is not yet so weird, so frighteningly bizarre and inexplicable, so blazingly psychotic and maniacally self-destructive that it can allow one of its major political parties to nominate someone for vice president who cannot navigate the relatively calm and shallow waters of a tame debate. Sure, Palin's a dud in too many ways to count, but at least she can wade her way through a hand-held Q&A with Gwen Ifill.
Yes, yes, the whole thing is graded on a quasi-mystical curve determined by Washington's secret societies: political wizards and campaign gurus and people who read The Hotline. Expectations are to politics as spice was to the planets of Dune: He who controls them wins. And on that front, this was a coup for the McCain camp, which managed to convince everyone that Palin would drive her can't-answer-questions truck right over the cliff into a spectacular crash in the Valley of Oooooooohhhh...Noooooo. But, just like in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, it's a trick. You think she's trapped in the smoldering wreckage below; then the camera pans around to reveal that she rolled out at the last minute. In the movie, you feel sad, then elated. Indy could've died! But he didn't! Same story here. Expectations were so dismal that most of us hardened election junkies were borderline unshockable. Palin could've mumbled misremembered lines from the Muppet show all night, and there would've been no shortage of commentater just shrugging their shoulders and saying, "Yeah, figures." Instead, the camera whipped around, and there she was, safe and sound. She could've died! But she didn't!
Conor Friedersdorf
This debate had an arc to it — Governor Palin came out far stronger than I suspected she would, seeming sharp and well-spoken. On style she destroyed Joe Biden as things began, giving crisp answers while he got bogged down defending himself by spewing out numbers. After 10 or 15 minutes, I thought that Governor Palin would emerge as the clear winner of the evening.
But when the debate turned to foreign policy her style suffered, and more important, the substance of her remarks signified no real knowledge of any of the topics being discussed. Joe Biden, on the other hand, seemed to have a depth of knowledge on every foreign policy topic, and I say that as someone who often disagrees with Senator Biden — even when he’s wrong he knows what he’s talking about.
My guess is that Sarah Palin did good enough to reassure voters who were beginning to doubt her competency, but that she didn’t win anyone over to the Republican side. This is because the topics on which Biden won — the economy, Iraq, and understanding what regular people are going through — are the most important to voters, whereas energy (drill baby drill!) is mere fodder for the base, though I too think we ought to drill. Likewise the most memorable moment, when Biden got choked up about his deceased family members in a way that clearly wasn’t affected, goes to the Democratic candidate.
Stepping back a moment, America has just witnessed a style of debate different than anything we’ve ever seen before. Governor Palin used cuteness as a weapon, actually winking at the camera on several occasions. Is this a portent of things to come? I can’t imagine that it is, and so I think that this was a singular political moment, and that it probably had Hillary Clinton, and maybe even Laura Bush, vomiting on the floor. For me, this cuteness sometimes made her seem likable. Other times I found it distressing, and found myself thinking, "Weird, this is a vice-presidential debate, but I feel like I’m watching a Fox News morning show anchor." That isn’t a statement about substance at all — just style.
There are limits to the utility of these instant impressions, and I look forward to digging into the transcript over the next day or two, and may well determine that some of this is wrong. But my guess is that Governor Palin’s answers will be worse for closer analysis, because she used buzz words with relish — maverick, straight talk, etc. Also, Governor Palin expressed a desire to talk more to voters without the filter of the mainstream media. The test of whether this is a mere talking point — it is — or whether she is being earnest, is whether she seeks out unscripted forums with voters over the next several weeks.
Finally, what about my call for Governor Palin to be kicked off the ticket? One criticism of my article was that the base would never accept it, and Governor Palin performed well enough tonight for that to be definitively true. But I don’t think she performed nearly well enough to allow John McCain to win the election, and neither did she convince me that she would be capable of becoming President on day 2.
To put a finer point on this, I ask the following of everyone who watched tonight’s debate — were John McCain assassinated at his inauguration by terrorists, even as two American cities saw buildings partially blown up by truck bombs, and Vladimir Putin used the opportunity to move troops into a former Soviet Repulic, would you trust that Governor Palin would have the knowledge, credibility, bearing and calming influence on the country to handle the situation? Or would having her in the Oval Office freak you out in a deep way? I’d be frightened, and I expect a lot of people now supporting Governor Palin would think, "Oh God, what have I done." I was hoping I’d change my mind about that tonight, for I really am all about not wanting worse case scenarios to happen, but alas I still worry about it.
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Comments
| Displaying 1 - 28 of 28 Comments |
Bob Carlton
October 3, 2008 7:23 am
while it will not ever be used as a slogan, I love the observation that the basic premise of Obama/Biden is
basic dispositional sanity
we've had 16 years of a cocktail of malfunction & disfunction - America has one helluva hangover
let's hope for a tall glass of fresh squeezed sanity
Mike Hall
October 3, 2008 8:51 am
Conor,
Please don't take what I am about to say personally, but you have been in Washington way too long. By the tone of your two articles I am very skeptical that you would know character, determination, honesty, conviction, and faith if they were to bite you on the ankle. I know you mean well. I also know that you are a patriot just like the rest of us. But it is the very traits that I just listed that make a great leader not factual knowledge or being on the Georgetown Saturday night a-list. Palin is a patriot who understands the threats we face, is self-confident, and has a "firm reliance on the hand of divine providence." Breathe my good man. Take a jaunt out of Washington for a change and see the character of people who keep this nation free and prosperous. People like Sarah Palin.
Anonymous
October 3, 2008 9:17 am
I am not a fan of Gov. Palin but to say that Palin leading our nation is more frightening than the other candidates is laughable. Have you looked at the state of our nation? Who do you think led us into our present economic and global problems? Should we feel good about the "experience" of our the politicians in Washington? I don't!
Bob Carlton
October 3, 2008 9:43 am
Mike Hall,
Joe Biden is a patriot. Barack Obama is a patriot, John McCain is a patriot. Sarah Palin is a patriot. Bob Barr is a patriot. Heck, Ralph Nader is a patriot.
People - in D.C. & outside - like all these patriots.
But I sorta like Conor's ankles - no one needs to bite them. He writes about a POV that polls suggest the majority of America agrees with.
Mike, do you disagree with the majority of patriots in America.
Mike, why do you hate patriots ?
Mike Hall
October 3, 2008 11:05 am
Bob,
I don't hate patriots. In fact, I try my best not to hate anyone. Hatred is a sin. I also don't hate Washington or those who work there. I do believe that many in that town have become jaded to the point of banality.
Richard Weaver in his book, Ideas Have Consequences nails what Sarah Palin coming to Washington represents,
"An observer coming into some metropolis from a province where traditional values are yet rooted is impressed by the way in which judgments are made without reference. He encounters arguments which are brilliant, perhaps, within a narrow scope, but which, when pushed a step in the direction of first principles, collapse for want of basic relevance."
Bob, I'm afraid that you and Conor-and me on some days-need a fresh dose of "first principles"
Cordially,
Mike
Anonymous
October 3, 2008 12:42 pm
"Joe Biden is a patriot. Barack Obama is a patriot, John McCain is a patriot. Sarah Palin is a patriot. Bob Barr is a patriot. Heck, Ralph Nader is a patriot."
My next door neighbor is a patriot.
Similarly, many people "agree with" Conor Friedersdorf, but I have recently begun reading commentary here because I'm looking for informed, well reasoned, cogent commentary, and decidedly am not looking for political spin.
Friedersdorf's commentary reads - and rather transparently from my point of view - like he had his conclusion in mind, and then reasoned backwards from that conclusion. In other words, it reads like sophistry, like casuistry, and not at all coherently.
I'm looking for insight, for coherence, for illumination, for intelligible, incisive, cogently rendered commentary.
I'll be looking elsewhere.
Pan Cascadian
October 3, 2008 10:10 am
I think the Federal Government has gotten too big and messy for the most competent administrator to handle competently. I just don't think it can be done any longer, if it ever was. I hold out little hope that McCain/Palin could do anything other than hasten its end.
I liked Noonan's analysis: "We are not as a nation manufacturing trust all that well, or competence, or leadership. But some things we do well, and one is comedy.
.
Anonymous
October 3, 2008 12:22 pm
The two primary, substantive mistakes by Biden that I took immediate notice of while watching concerned the idea that Hezbollah had been kicked out of Lebanon (they have not) and the statements Biden made concerning the Constitution and what it says concerning the role of the V.P. In the former case I knew that was flat out wrong, in the latter case I merely suspected some of what Biden was saying was wrong, though subsequent commentary has now confirmed my original suspicions.
What is striking, in both instances, is that these are not nuanced issues. To fail to have command of a rather pivotal and simple fact (Hezbollah and Lebanon) that concerns Israel, Lebanon, Hezbollah and those state entities who sponsor Hezbollah (Iran and Syria) was rather stunning.
This is no less true however when it comes to the VP's role has set out within the Constitution. This was less striking at the time I was watching the debate, nonetheless it's a fact made all the more salient by the attendant fact that Joe Biden himself is not only a lawyer and a U.S. senator who is running for the office in question, he additionally has taught Constitutional law, assuming the reports I've read are true.
Hence to spin last night's debate in the manner Conor Friedersdorf has is unconvincing in the extreme, assuming the argument being forwarded is not intended in a common, political vein, but instead is intended in a coherent, cogently argued manner.
Anonymous
October 3, 2008 2:44 pm
well let me point out the primary substantive mistake gov Palin made… not knowing anything about it, to her credit she did nail the winking part of the debate.
Chris Brooks
October 3, 2008 12:43 pm
Conor doesn't think Palin could be president on day 2. Need I remind you that the other side's running a guy with no more experience who would be president on day 1?
In the end, we all know that a president, though the ultimate decision maker, is not the only person who counts in an administration. On day 2, Palin would inherit the people McCain chose to run Defense, State, and every other position. She would hardly be sitting in the White House alone wondering what to do.
Given her penchant for hockey and hunting, her response to a terrorist attack would probably be, to quote Al Bundy, "swift and blinding violence" -- much like every other red-blooded American. (The blue-blooded will immitate the French no matter who's in charge.)
Anonymous
October 3, 2008 2:48 pm
Hmm I like the Al Bundy- Palin foreign policy comparison. Sounds well thought out and highly effective.
Anonymous
October 3, 2008 2:26 pm
She would poll better if she would gently bite her finger when she winks, or slowly let her hair down. Game.. Set.. Match.
Anonymous
October 3, 2008 2:31 pm
She should have carried Trig in one of those baby holsters around her neck the whole time. Then she would have been the 2nd most retarded person on stage.
Shane Vander Hart
October 3, 2008 4:31 pm
It is nice that you hide behind anonymity to make disgusting remarks like this. It shows that really have nothing of substance to say.
Culture 11 - you need to not allow anonymous comments - if people want to make remarks like this, let them take ownership of them.
Anonymous
October 3, 2008 5:14 pm
Wow, that's offensive. I guess that's what unintelligent people do when they have no real argument; insult and offend people.
Palin performed well. She's a respectable, smart woman.
Anonymous
October 3, 2008 5:14 pm
Wow, that's offensive. I guess that's what unintelligent people do when they have no real argument; insult and offend people.
Palin performed well. She's a respectable, smart woman.
Anonymous
October 4, 2008 5:48 pm
Way to go Anonymous. Consider yourself privilged that you get to reveal your intelligence in a country that values freedom - and walks the walk, not just talks the talk. I hope you enjoy dissenting in an Obama world where dissent is stamped out with thuggish Chicago-machine tactics. When he employs his civilian peacekeepers, dissent will be snuffed out along with your hateful comments.
Bob Carlton
October 3, 2008 2:45 pm
the two disgusting posts about palin are a disgrace
Speaking with Fox News’ Carl Cameron, Palin said some of Obama’s comments “in my world disqualify someone from consideration as the next commander in chief.”
Seriously, what world does Sarah Palin live in ? Is it a different world than the one we do ?
Anonymous
October 3, 2008 2:51 pm
Admit it Bob you spend way too much time in the bathroom with the political section. I just helped you out with the visualization, you’ll thank me later.
Anonymous
October 3, 2008 2:54 pm
Bob Carlton. Never been laid.
Anonymous
October 3, 2008 6:04 pm
I love the hyper-criticism of Sarah Palin, but Joe Biden can call his running mate a 'clean black', make fun of Indian-Americans, and say that FDR went on television in 1929 (Hoover was president and no tv) and gets a pass from the cheerleaders at the three major networks with PBS in tow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcX_xfuivbs
Anonymous
October 3, 2008 3:05 pm
hahahah you said Fox news. Quoting fox news is basically the same as quoting Scrooge Mcduck
Anonymous
October 4, 2008 8:15 am
Poulos-give your buddies writing lessons. They need it. CW
Anonymous
October 4, 2008 10:18 am
Conor....Why didnt Palin answer Ifill's question about her Achilles Heel?
She bolted right past it and rambled on about how great America is......I suspect....Palin didn't know what an Achilles Heel is.
chilling isn't it?
Anonymous
October 4, 2008 10:31 am
I mean....not just the depths of Palin's ignorance and anti-intellectualism, but that that can be obscured by clever presentation and IQ-baiting?
Does it really matter that the Vice Presidential candidate didnt know the meaning of the term Achilles Heel in a debate?
NO, but it matters that Team McCain and Palin are so good at covering that up.
Anonymous
October 5, 2008 1:41 am
Conor once again you demonstrate your aptness at being a superficial plagiarist trying to project Palinesque pseudo-command of any subject while delivering the 'substance' of a 'Nilla wafer.
Anonymous
October 5, 2008 12:07 pm
The trul;y abysmal level of the comments above is astonishing! Not surprising. The left prefer deconstructive complaints rather than serious thought.
Anonymous
October 6, 2008 12:01 pm
Doesn’t matter race is over. Ocean blue quenches the scarlet red of ignorance. And if you’re not sure of that wait till everyone gets their qt 401k summery in about 4 days.
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